So, you concede that “God creates babies and Jesus liked them, too.” The only operable concept here is that babies still in the womb are indeed babies. As much as you are trying to pull this off topic, this discussion is whether or not Christians can morally justify their support of abortion rights, and so far the argument in favor of that is thin.

“If you cannot use your faith to reconcile yourself to the world, then what is the use of your faith? That's the whole POINT of religion”

This is a false statement where the Christian faith is concerned. I'll let Jesus' words answer you:

John15: 18″If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.”

As you can see, we Christians are NOT to reconcile ourselves to secular institutions, though in other places Jesus did acknowledge civic duties like paying taxes and obeying human rulers. This is one of the most significant and relevant statements Jesus ever made. Jesus was no populist. He was no demagogue. His only agenda was doing God's work.

I agree that the whole of the Bible should not be taken literally. (After all, Paul did say it was an abomination for women to speak in church, did he not?) Instead, it's a good practice in Bible study to accept concepts and doctrine that are agreed upon in no less than two places in the Bible, but preferably three. I am not “cherry picking,” and how closed-minded of you to accuse me of it. In no circumstances would I classify the Bible as “mystical.”

(all typos the fault of posting by blackberry)

Let me save us both the trouble. I do not agree with your tone or your interpretation. I do agree to disagree. If you leave the discussion thinking you have won something, that's fine with me. Your comments are here, anyone reading may make their own determination as to whether you have made a clear and convincing argument for your position and vice versa.

At the end of it all we will know whether we are both right, one is right, or we're both dead wrong. In the meantime we're both going to look ourselves in the mirror and accept what stares back.

Thank you for your comments.
Sent via BlackBerry

but in Jeremiah 1:5 God says, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you.” Jesus' love of children and his admonition “Let the little children come to me, and stop keeping them away, because the kingdom of heaven belongs to people like these.” These verses are CLEAR evidence that God does not approve of abortions.

Um. No. It's not. It says that God creates babies and that Jesus liked them, too. Using those quotes to support that assertion is just plain ludicrous. Yes, I'm sure you can make some lovely rhetorical dance moves to “prove” that is does – but if you take a literal translation – no. It doesn't. (Odd, how the bible is “literal” when it's useful and “metaphorical” or “mystical” when that works better)

How do you NOT draw a moral equivalency between 2M babies and 2K soldiers? Do you honestly believe that one is ok to kill and the other isn't? Or are Iraqis only worth 3/5ths of an fetus? Seriously – did Jesus really draw distinction between the loss of ANY life.

If you cannot use your faith to reconcile yourself to the world, then what is the use of your faith? That's the whole POINT of religion – to make sense of a world that makes no sense – not to use religious texts to cherry pick “proof” for opinions that you want to pass off as God's.

In the other thread you stated:

“for me, it all comes down to the one
that He gave in John 15: Love one another. Period. That's it. It supercedes
all of the others. Love. one. another.”

I didn't see anything in John 15 that supports your belief that Jesus' command to love supercedes any other scripture. Funny, your Bible must only be one chapter long. Mine is over 2200 pages long. Neither Jesus, nor Paul or any of the apostles, nor any credible theologian today or of any other time would agree that this command you speak of negates even one single word in the rest of the Bible. In many circles you would be considered an 'a la carte Christian,' or someone who chooses only to practice those parts of the Bible which are palatable to them. If your Bible had more than one chapter, you could see that Jesus did address this belief in Matthew:

“17″Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven”

Surely in your Bible, Paul doesn't address beliefs like yours In Romans 6:

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?”

It IS possible to observe the command to Love while observing the rest of the Gospel, in fact it's mandatory. Nobody said it was easy. Jesus was killed because he made an 'intolerant' stand. he didn't rationalize worldly behavior or placate his enemies. I think you're under the illusion that to disagree with one's behavior is to condemn them. It is not. I am not against homosexuals, I am not against a balanced educational curriculum for our kids. Abortion is different than the other issues discussed in this forum because it involves an innocent, defenseless victim. Now I have genuine love and compassion for every human being on the earth, especially children. For these reasons, I could never, ever, EVER condone legalized abortion.
Now, if your only response is for me to “See my reply to your other message,” then save your keystrokes. If you dismiss me as intolerant or condemning, I won't even bother to finish reading your response and you won't hear another word from me. If, on the other hand, you have anything intelligent to add to the fray, we can keep this thread open as long as you like.

BTW… supposing that he did choose to be sworn in on the Koran, why would that disqualify him?

As to thanking, McCain for his service, yes, we should thank all of our solider Sadly, very few people in the bush administration defended our rights on the field of battle. Here's a partial list – George W. Bush, Andy Card, Karl Rove, John Ashcroft, Don Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Dick Cheney, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Brit Hume, William Bennet, Bill Kristol…THESE are people who could have served and chose not to. THESE are the people that sent our sons and daughters into a war without knowing first hand the actual hell of war.
Hastert, Gingrich, Lott, Delay

McCain was also pro-abortion before burying his beliefs to appease the far right wing of the party and radical small-c christians. Sorry. That's just a fact.

Perhaps you should stopping lying about the log in your own eye first.

Loving one another means not pointing fingers at individuals or a group and
telling them they are sinning, or different, or unwelcome, or repugnant. If
you think that's moral relativism that's your problem.

Of COURSE I admit that abortion is sin. I think most people who have
abortions understand that on some basic level. I've seen women in deep pain
years later over their decision. Double-over bending pain, searing pain. I'm
certainly not going to stand back and point a finger at them and tell them
they're sinners. It's NOT my job, now or ever.

When you call me a moral relativist you're missing my point entirely. What I
pointed out here was the hypocrisy of the right's need to pass judgment on
people as some sort of higher authority, bypassing God's role in all of
that. And worse yet, (and back to the subject of my original blog post), the
McCain campaign figures the markets will sort themselves out, even for
people who don't have anything to go to market WITH.

Maybe if the social conservatives started behaving in the spirit of John 15
instead of like Pharisees, the message would become clear.