The person from Ireland at the dinner was pretty appalled. She had a better working knowledge of the Constitution than the guy who I was arguing with, and pointed out gently that with regard to habeas corpus, it's simply a question of having a right to ask if there's a reason to be held, and no guarantee of any trial or US court jurisdiction.

She was also surprised at the depth of his response to Obama — she said that in Ireland he's pretty well regarded. What I tend to see when having conversations with people that are either well-traveled or from overseas is a much, much broader view. They don't understand the dogmatic, narrow view of our current administration and view it with as much concern as they would any dictator of a foreign country that seems to be a threat to world peace.

That is why we want everyone to be able to Post so they can start a conversation about an idea they have to make this happen.

Stop on by and check it out. By all means leave a comment and sign up to blog with us as we figure out what needs to be done to return our Fourth Amendment Rights and our rule of law.

If you have a blog already and you become a poster we will link to your site.

http://repealfisa.wordpress.com/

The “I have nothing to hide” argument is sort of toothless on both sides of the debate, because nothing could really be proved — if you have nothing to hide, how do you know information isn't being collected for other reasons? And if you worried about rights being eroded, the other side would just ask how your life is changed one way or the other. Leave aside the fact that without habeas, someone could be rounded up for something they thought they didn't have to hide and never plead their case in court (some dots I don't think many supporters of the wire tapping in the general public have connected, as Bill Kristol recently proved). But here's another curious aspect about the data mining:

As you've said elsewhere, Karoli, the modus operandi of this administration is to contract out its features to private interests (think tanks, construction firms, banking and energy interests, communications conglomerates, etc.). There is no guarantee such data mining wouldn't be or isn't being used for market identification and manipulation — identifying demographics, possible corporate espionage, finding out who watches O'Reilly at night and who watches Olberman and what they say to their friends about it and where those people live. Do O'Reilly watchers buy Tide, or search for porn, and what do their cultural choices tell industry about how to market certain products to them or deny them certain products and information. Target marketing like we've never seen before.

Everyone thinks they took individual lines and tapped them, listening to every conversation. What they actually did was funnel EVERYONE's internet, phone, etc, through a separate pipe and then tracked (just like Twitter tracking) for specific terms and phrases.

Imagine being the poor unfortunate who used a key phrase unwittingly.

When I explained that to them, they didn't hear it. That's because they trust the folks in government, even as they claim not to trust politicians.

I truly hope you're right. That would be great. Or if it could be phrased in a way that opened the door for prosecution of the Bush group after the fact. I'd like to think that the Dems have the chance to really clean house, politically and literally.

Hey, I'm glad you found me too! Thanks for the comment.

The Dems are biting in their favor, with Obama leading the charge. And then you hear the pushback, right? The comments about “hope without facts, yada yada…” and it feels almost …hopeless. But it's not. What needs to happen first is that they're elected. Just as Bush reframed the mood of this country to fear, Obama has the capability of reframing to one of hope and respect. But first, he has to get elected.

There is also this possibility. If the telcos produce documents showing that the Bushies told them it was legal, the responsibility for the illegal wiretapping falls back to Bush and his minions. That's where I want it, because corporations aren't the real villains here. Bush, Cheney, Addington, Yoo, and their band of merry men are the real villains.

It's a long shot, for sure, but I think it's one that might work.

Pelosi and Hoyer, however? They're on my short shit list.

I went off about wiretapping a few months ago to my mother-in-law who is a staunch Republican, and an avid O'Reilly fan. Anyway, she said, “I have nothing to hide.” So what, I don't either, that is not the point. The constant erosion of our rights is the point.

The other thing that irritates me about Obama with this whole mess, is not that he is appeasing people, but that he is doing it so soon. I realize he needs to be more moderate to win, but sheesh. I like him partly because he always seemed so un-politician to me. His view on this makes me believe that he is just another politician. And yes, maybe I am naive. I am angry, but I'll probably get over it, too.